I'm interested in truth & what it means for individuals & humanity. This re-vamped blog is dedicated to truth and honest questions about faith in Jesus Christ. It is an effort to engage in authentic dialogue among Christians, Atheists and all points in between. Posts that do not honor legitimate discussion may be removed at my discretion. That doesn't mean that you can't disagree, but it DOES mean that you can't be a jerk. Welcome to the discussion.
In another area of this blog, Jared posted the following question:
One thing that still bothers me though, is the question of individuals, even countries, not ever hearing about Jesus. As far as I know, Scripture doesn't say what happens to those people. Maybe they are under the Moral Law. How do I respond to people who ask me, "How can God be just if people who have never heard of Him perish?" I guess my response would be that I don't know for sure if they perish. Also, to borrow from C.S. Lewis, I would let them know that THEY have heard, because we are talking about it, so what are they going to do?
The following two quotations are verses whose implications I am still trying grasp. How do you think they should impact our understanding of people's involvement and pursuit of non-Christian religions?
-CL
Luke 11:9 “So I say to you, Ask, and it will be given you; search, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened for you. (NRSV)
Acts 17:26 From one ancestor he made all nations to inhabit the whole earth, and he allotted the times of their existence and the boundaries of the places where they would live, 27 so that they would search for God and perhaps grope for him and find him—though indeed he is not far from each one of us. (NRSV)
Romans 1 is very clear that God is fair in condemning everyone, because everyone has been exposed to God's eternal qualities and divine nature generally revealed through what has been created. Their condemnation is based on their rejection of the truth, rather than their ignorance of it. If humans know enough about God to reject him and be condemned, might they also know enough to accept Him and be saved?
Also, Jesus parables make it clear that there will be surprises in the end. There will be some expect to get in but don't; there will be others who aren't expected to get in, but do. His final judgment will most likely be more fair than I am comfortable with and more grace-filled than I am comfortable with.
AND, whether you are an inclusivist or an exclusivist, the bottom line is the same: ultimately we don't know who will be saved and who won't; and whoever is saved is only saved through the atoning work of Christ.
A BIG (although necessary?) part of this topic is inherently flawed because it involves human judgment/speculation of who is "in" or "out." When we attempt to determine who will or won't spend eternity in God's presence, we put ourselves in the judges seat. I think it is among the highest and most detestable forms of arrogance when Christians elevate themselves into that position with (over-)confidence.
However, since theologians are required to take some sort of position on salvation by the very nature of the discussion, it seems to me that any side we come down on is best served by our willingness to admit that we don't know for sure and that we could be wrong.
The key for productive discussion on theologically knotty issues is humility. Regrettably this is not something that many of us are known for.
All that being said, while I do not know with certainty, I suspect that God favors mercy over justice, even if it is at a 50.1% to 49.9% ratio.
Jesus' mission is the best example of this, but here is another from the OT:
Exodus 20:5b-6 ...for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. (TNIV)
I am not a Universalist, so I do not think of God as a doddering, benevolent grandfather who forgets what he said and let's everybody in at the end. But at the same time, I believe (as per the scripture you cited and others) that people can be saved through Jesus the Christ, even if they have never heard him called by that namesake.
As CS Lewis has hinted, I think it is impossible for any one to do evil in the name of the Lord, even if they claim to be acting on his behalf, as much as it is impossible for a "lost" person to do good that does not have its roots in the creator.
Another way of saying this might be to credit all good to God and all evil to not-God. And certainly non-Christians have done (and are doing) some good. This is not to say that good "works" are enough to merit salvation, but that is not the point. THE point is that when people do good, it is evident that God is at work in their lives. And when the God, who is not tame is afoot, we should expect some unexpected things.
Our part in this is to help OPEN the doors of the kingdom to everyone, rather than slamming them in others' faces. It seems that oftentimes this discussion takes place in the presence of those who are aghast at some well-meaning Christians teaching that people who have never heard of Jesus (much less expressly and knowingly professed faith in him) go to hell. If we were to affirm this, it paints God as an extremely unfair, heavenly jerk. Since we don't really KNOW that this is the case, why should we set it up as an extra (unnecessary) hurdle to hop?
Besides, in ANY conversation we have about this issue, the participants themselves, whether Christian or not, can no longer hope that the way that THEY have been living/ truth seeking will be sufficient to find God and his salvation. For once the name of Jesus enters in to it, ignorance about him is no longer an alternative. The idea of Inclusivism is how Christ impacts people "who have never heard about him."
Finally, we who know it is Jesus that we seek are obligated to serve those who do not know him regardless of where they are or what they think they know about Christ and his Christians.
1Timothy 2:1-6 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and human beings, Christ Jesus, himself human, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. (TNIV)
Please keep in mind that comments which do not honor the spirit of legitimate dialogue may be removed at any time and without notification. You are free to disagree passionately, but not inappropriately. -CL
In another area of this blog, Jared posted the following question:
ReplyDeleteOne thing that still bothers me though, is the question of individuals, even countries, not ever hearing about Jesus. As far as I know, Scripture doesn't say what happens to those people. Maybe they are under the Moral Law. How do I respond to people who ask me, "How can God be just if people who have never heard of Him perish?" I guess my response would be that I don't know for sure if they perish. Also, to borrow from C.S. Lewis, I would let them know that THEY have heard, because we are talking about it, so what are they going to do?
The following two quotations are verses whose implications I am still trying grasp. How do you think they should impact our understanding of people's involvement and pursuit of non-Christian religions?
ReplyDelete-CL
Luke 11:9 “So I say to you, Ask, and it will be given you; search, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened for you. (NRSV)
Acts 17:26 From one ancestor he made all nations to inhabit the whole earth, and he allotted the times of their existence and the boundaries of the places where they would live, 27 so that they would search for God and perhaps grope for him and find him—though indeed he is not far from each one of us. (NRSV)
Romans 1 is very clear that God is fair in condemning everyone, because everyone has been exposed to God's eternal qualities and divine nature generally revealed through what has been created. Their condemnation is based on their rejection of the truth, rather than their ignorance of it. If humans know enough about God to reject him and be condemned, might they also know enough to accept Him and be saved?
ReplyDeleteAlso, Jesus parables make it clear that there will be surprises in the end. There will be some expect to get in but don't; there will be others who aren't expected to get in, but do. His final judgment will most likely be more fair than I am comfortable with and more grace-filled than I am comfortable with.
AND, whether you are an inclusivist or an exclusivist, the bottom line is the same: ultimately we don't know who will be saved and who won't; and whoever is saved is only saved through the atoning work of Christ.
Well said, Chip & Chels.
ReplyDeleteA BIG (although necessary?) part of this topic is inherently flawed because it involves human judgment/speculation of who is "in" or "out."
When we attempt to determine who will or won't spend eternity in God's presence, we put ourselves in the judges seat. I think it is among the highest and most detestable forms of arrogance when Christians elevate themselves into that position with (over-)confidence.
However, since theologians are required to take some sort of position on salvation by the very nature of the discussion, it seems to me that any side we come down on is best served by our willingness to admit that we don't know for sure and that we could be wrong.
The key for productive discussion on theologically knotty issues is humility. Regrettably this is not something that many of us are known for.
All that being said, while I do not know with certainty, I suspect that God favors mercy over justice, even if it is at a 50.1% to 49.9% ratio.
Jesus' mission is the best example of this, but here is another from the OT:
Exodus 20:5b-6 ...for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. (TNIV)
I am not a Universalist, so I do not think of God as a doddering, benevolent grandfather who forgets what he said and let's everybody in at the end. But at the same time, I believe (as per the scripture you cited and others) that people can be saved through Jesus the Christ, even if they have never heard him called by that namesake.
As CS Lewis has hinted, I think it is impossible for any one to do evil in the name of the Lord, even if they claim to be acting on his behalf, as much as it is impossible for a "lost" person to do good that does not have its roots in the creator.
Another way of saying this might be to credit all good to God and all evil to not-God. And certainly non-Christians have done (and are doing) some good. This is not to say that good "works" are enough to merit salvation, but that is not the point. THE point is that when people do good, it is evident that God is at work in their lives. And when the God, who is not tame is afoot, we should expect some unexpected things.
Our part in this is to help OPEN the doors of the kingdom to everyone, rather than slamming them in others' faces. It seems that oftentimes this discussion takes place in the presence of those who are aghast at some well-meaning Christians teaching that people who have never heard of Jesus (much less expressly and knowingly professed faith in him) go to hell. If we were to affirm this, it paints God as an extremely unfair, heavenly jerk. Since we don't really KNOW that this is the case, why should we set it up as an extra (unnecessary) hurdle to hop?
Besides, in ANY conversation we have about this issue, the participants themselves, whether Christian or not, can no longer hope that the way that THEY have been living/ truth seeking will be sufficient to find God and his salvation. For once the name of Jesus enters in to it, ignorance about him is no longer an alternative. The idea of Inclusivism is how Christ impacts people "who have never heard about him."
Finally, we who know it is Jesus that we seek are obligated to serve those who do not know him regardless of where they are or what they think they know about Christ and his Christians.
1Timothy 2:1-6 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and human beings, Christ Jesus, himself human, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. (TNIV)
-Corb