I'm interested in truth & what it means for individuals & humanity. This re-vamped blog is dedicated to truth and honest questions about faith in Jesus Christ. It is an effort to engage in authentic dialogue among Christians, Atheists and all points in between. Posts that do not honor legitimate discussion may be removed at my discretion. That doesn't mean that you can't disagree, but it DOES mean that you can't be a jerk. Welcome to the discussion.
The original second thesis offered as a challenge to Xianity is connected to the ongoing discussion on the "moral argument" because that is the most logical place for it to be inserted.
It can be found on this blog at: http://thepeakcommunity.blogspot.com/2009/01/moral-argument.html
In it's place, the following challenge has also been offered by EL:
By the way, this is a totally separate issue of very minor importance, but here's a potential fifth blog: Do you believe in angels and demons? The bible mentions angels in a couple of places and identifies at least one by name (Gabriel,) but it says tantalizingly little about where they come from or what they do or how their powers are any less than or different from a god; many modern Christians seem to think that humans who go to heaven get to *become* angels, but I don't think that's suppoted by the biblical text? Correct me if I'm wrong, but other than Satan, (I should capitalize His name too to be consistent, right?) I don't think the Bible actually names any specific demons at all, and that lesser demons are an extra-biblical creation.
I'm curious about whether you believe in all this angels and demons stuff because it certainly seems to me that Christianity is a monotheism in name only, but if you peel back the veil, there are all kinds of polytheistic deities running around. There's Gabriel of course, then all the lesser angels and demons, not to mention that there are at least four major gods, three of which are good (Yahweh, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit,) and one of which is evil (Satan.) Although most Christians recoil at terms such as 'gods' or 'polytheism,' I see the main difference between Christian beliefs and, let's say, Hinduism or Greek mythology, as one of form rather than substance. The Greeks had the one big head honcho (Zeus) and a bunch of other lesser gods, some of which were good and some of which were evil; Christians have the three big positive head honchos, one chief negative god, and an infinite number of lesser deities in the middle. The only real difference seems to be that of terminology; 'god' versus 'devil' or 'demon' or 'angel.' Mercury sounds an awful lot like an angel to me.
Angels and Demons The Bible paints different pictures about these entities, sometimes even (as you indicated) referring to them as “gods.” (1Corinthians 8:5 et. al.). At one point, the text even refers to humans as “gods” (Psalms 82:6). But more often than not, so-called “gods” are merely euphemisms for entities that people have set on equal footing with God the Father (or the Trinity). In these instances, the text is referring to idols (false gods), not the Living God himself. According to the Christian paradigm, “idols” can be inanimate objects (like stone carvings or money), but they can also be sentient creatures like animals, humans or in some cases what you have called angels and demons. Essentially, false gods are anything that tries to take credit for that which is due only to THE God, the real and authoritative God. This was Satan’s issue. He wanted to be just like God. Interesting that this the exact same lie he sold to Adam and Eve in the Garden story. Even more interesting (to me) is that this is the same lie that Mormons perpetrate upon their religious sect: “As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.” Most Christians recognize this as something nefarious and unChristian.
I guess it comes down to how you define “deity.” Is it eternality? Is it moral perfection? How about the ability to transcend physical creation? Is it omniscience or perfect knowledge, power and wisdom? Depending upon what definition we come up with, angels and demons might be squeezed into it. So might modern humans if transported back to prehistoric times.
But from within the Christian paradigm, there is only one Triune God and all else are lesser creations. In fact, I might suggest that one of the chief ways to describe the God of the Bible is to say that he is the only entity that was not created. He is the only infinite, self-existent (not self-created) and necessary being. All else are creations, and even if they never die, there was a point in the past when they did not exist. This cannot be said of the Trinity.
Finally, you are right to question the biblical case for people becoming angels; it’s a bit spotty. I think the text in question is Luke 20:35, 36, which states that the saved will “be like the angels.” This is a simile though, not an exhaustive definition, and in this verse’s context, being “like the angels” means “not being given in marriage and no longer subject to death,” so we’d be wise not to stretch the simile too far.
Demons are attested to in the biblical text, but never as opposites to God. There is no dualism with Christianity. There is only one true God and he has no opposite. The biblical Satan character is not God’s evil counterpart. That player is not infinite, omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient etc. etc. The same can be said of angels and demons. They, like us, are creations, even if of a different order.
I hope that helps a bit. Feel free to “push-back” on these issues if you want to.
I think it is interesting that this thread started before Dan Brown's latest movie came out ("Angels & Demons"). I haven't seen it; are there any questions that it engenders in light of this thread?
Please keep in mind that comments which do not honor the spirit of legitimate dialogue may be removed at any time and without notification. You are free to disagree passionately, but not inappropriately. -CL
The original second thesis offered as a challenge to Xianity is connected to the ongoing discussion on the "moral argument" because that is the most logical place for it to be inserted.
ReplyDeleteIt can be found on this blog at:
http://thepeakcommunity.blogspot.com/2009/01/moral-argument.html
In it's place, the following challenge has also been offered by EL:
By the way, this is a totally separate issue of very minor importance, but here's a potential fifth blog: Do you believe in angels and demons? The bible mentions angels in a couple of places and identifies at least one by name (Gabriel,) but it says tantalizingly little about where they come from or what they do or how their powers are any less than or different from a god; many modern Christians seem to think that humans who go to heaven get to *become* angels, but I don't think that's suppoted by the biblical text? Correct me if I'm wrong, but other than Satan, (I should capitalize His name too to be consistent, right?) I don't think the Bible actually names any specific demons at all, and that lesser demons are an extra-biblical creation.
ReplyDeleteI'm curious about whether you believe in all this angels and demons stuff because it certainly seems to me that Christianity is a monotheism in name only, but if you peel back the veil, there are all kinds of polytheistic deities running around. There's Gabriel of course, then all the lesser angels and demons, not to mention that there are at least four major gods, three of which are good (Yahweh, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit,) and one of which is evil (Satan.) Although most Christians recoil at terms such as 'gods' or 'polytheism,' I see the main difference between Christian beliefs and, let's say, Hinduism or Greek mythology, as one of form rather than substance. The Greeks had the one big head honcho (Zeus) and a bunch of other lesser gods, some of which were good and some of which were evil; Christians have the three big positive head honchos, one chief negative god, and an infinite number of lesser deities in the middle. The only real difference seems to be that of terminology; 'god' versus 'devil' or 'demon' or 'angel.' Mercury sounds an awful lot like an angel to me.
EL,
ReplyDeleteGood questions.
Angels and Demons
The Bible paints different pictures about these entities, sometimes even (as you indicated) referring to them as “gods.” (1Corinthians 8:5 et. al.). At one point, the text even refers to humans as “gods” (Psalms 82:6). But more often than not, so-called “gods” are merely euphemisms for entities that people have set on equal footing with God the Father (or the Trinity). In these instances, the text is referring to idols (false gods), not the Living God himself. According to the Christian paradigm, “idols” can be inanimate objects (like stone carvings or money), but they can also be sentient creatures like animals, humans or in some cases what you have called angels and demons. Essentially, false gods are anything that tries to take credit for that which is due only to THE God, the real and authoritative God. This was Satan’s issue. He wanted to be just like God. Interesting that this the exact same lie he sold to Adam and Eve in the Garden story. Even more interesting (to me) is that this is the same lie that Mormons perpetrate upon their religious sect: “As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.” Most Christians recognize this as something nefarious and unChristian.
I guess it comes down to how you define “deity.” Is it eternality? Is it moral perfection? How about the ability to transcend physical creation? Is it omniscience or perfect knowledge, power and wisdom? Depending upon what definition we come up with, angels and demons might be squeezed into it. So might modern humans if transported back to prehistoric times.
But from within the Christian paradigm, there is only one Triune God and all else are lesser creations. In fact, I might suggest that one of the chief ways to describe the God of the Bible is to say that he is the only entity that was not created. He is the only infinite, self-existent (not self-created) and necessary being. All else are creations, and even if they never die, there was a point in the past when they did not exist. This cannot be said of the Trinity.
Finally, you are right to question the biblical case for people becoming angels; it’s a bit spotty. I think the text in question is Luke 20:35, 36, which states that the saved will “be like the angels.” This is a simile though, not an exhaustive definition, and in this verse’s context, being “like the angels” means “not being given in marriage and no longer subject to death,” so we’d be wise not to stretch the simile too far.
Demons are attested to in the biblical text, but never as opposites to God.
There is no dualism with Christianity. There is only one true God and he has no opposite. The biblical Satan character is not God’s evil counterpart. That player is not infinite, omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient etc. etc. The same can be said of angels and demons. They, like us, are creations, even if of a different order.
I hope that helps a bit. Feel free to “push-back” on these issues if you want to.
-CL
I think it is interesting that this thread started before Dan Brown's latest movie came out ("Angels & Demons"). I haven't seen it; are there any questions that it engenders in light of this thread?
ReplyDelete-CL