I recently received a forwarded email that constituted little more than propaganda against President Obama. In that email (which I have included in the first “comment” on this thread), our President is accused of canceling a long-standing National Day of Prayer event as well as praying with Muslims and declaring that our nation is “no longer a Christian nation.” In a moment of unfortunate (?) indignation, I dared to hit “reply all” to point out this ill-conceived email’s fallacies. I could have predicted it, but this was apparently the invitation that one person, Jeff Stoker of Michigan, was looking for to initiate an emotionally laden diatribe in support of his Conservative political agenda. Our conversation started as a Facebook thread among the original recipients of the Anti-Obama propaganda, but I know how annoying unsolicited “reply-all” arguments can be, so I moved my objections to Jeff’s position to a private message format. However, Jeff apparently couldn’t tolerate the idea of keeping a private conversation private, so he re-posted all of my messages to him in the original forum even though I told him previously that he did not have my permission to do so.
Normally, I do my best to honor people who send me private messages by keeping them private or at least asking them for permission (if I can) before I post their writings in a public format. I consider this common courtesy. However, if they expressly tell me NOT to post things they have written, THEN it becomes an issue of integrity. Apparently such integrity is foreign to Jeff Stoker. Nevertheless, in this case I actually don’t mind that he re-printed my words in a more public setting against my wishes, for contrary to my expectations, Jeff actually posted my words to him verbatim, and I remain confident in my criticisms of the political propaganda he has come to believe in so strongly.
Not that anyone is particularly interested in reading yet another political argument, but to accord Jeffry the same courtesy he extended to me, I have also decided to post our conversation in a more public format. Except for protecting the name of the friend who first sent me the propaganda, all posts are unedited and in their original sequence. I leave it to anyone bored enough to read through them to decide who has made the better case regarding the accusations made against our Commander in Chief.
As always, thank you for reading.
-C. Lambeth
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In 1952 President Truman established one day a year as a "National Day of Prayer."
ReplyDeleteIn 1988 President Reagan
designated the First Thursday in May of each year as the National Day of Prayer.
In June 2007 (then) Presidential Candidate Barack Obama declared that the USA
"Was no longer a Christian nation."
This year President Obama canceled the 21st annual National Day
of Prayer ceremony at the White House under the ruse Of "not wanting to offend anyone"
BUT... on September 25, 2009 from 4 AM until 7 PM, a National Day of Prayer
FOR THE MUSLIM RELIGION was Held on Capitol Hill, Beside the White House.
There were over 50,000 Muslims in D.C. that day.
HE PRAYS WITH THE MUSLIMS!
I guess it Doesn't matter if "Christians" Are offended by this event - We obviously Don't count as "anyone" Anymore.
The direction this country is headed should strike fear in the heart of every Christian, especially knowing that the Muslim religion believes that if Christians cannot be converted, they should be annihilated.
This is not a Rumor – Go to the website
To confirm this info:
( http://www.islamoncapitolhill.com/ )
Pay particular attention to the very bottom of the page:
"OUR TIME HAS COME" I hope that this information will stir your spirit.
The words of 2 Chronicles 7:14 "If my people, Who are called by my Name, Will humble themselves And pray, And seek my face, and Turn from their Wicked ways, Then will I hear from Heaven And will forgive their Sin and will heal Their land."
We must pray for Our nation, our communities, Our families, and especially our children. They are the ones who are going to suffer the most.
If we don't PRAY May God have Mercy.
IN GOD WE TRUST.
This is patently false. Obama did not cancel the National Day of Prayer. This type of rumor/hoax is the result of political fear mongering and purposeful misinformation. I won't speculate as to why it was started, but we should all check our facts before repeating false propaganda.
ReplyDelete-Corb
http://spirituality.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474978218142
Corbin,
ReplyDeleteI need to correct you and your comments. The post says BHO cancelled the ceremony at the White House, which he did. He did not cancel the day of prayer.
This year President Obama canceled the 21st annual National Day of Prayer ceremony at the White House under the ruse Of "not wanting to offend anyone"
So if you reread the post you will see that your comments are incorrect.
We need to be careful when we post and send out information.
Just so we're clear, we can all admit that Obama has not taken ANY stand against the National Day of Prayer. That some people think that his private observance of the day is grounds for a smear campaign and fear-mongering over Islam reflects poorly on Obama's political enemies, but this is not altogether surprising.
ReplyDeleteWhile Bush Jr. hosted an ecumenical prayer reception in the White House, it was neither a an official ceremony nor prescribed by the National Day of Prayer (NDP) or even a long-standing presidential tradition. In fact, Bush II was the ONLY president who regularly scheduled White House events in observance of the NDP. Bush 1 held one prayer event at the WH during his 4 years and Reagan also offered 1 in his 8 years. Would we argue that all our other presidents were anti-Christian Muslims too?
On April 15, 2010 a challenge offered by the “Freedom From Religion Foundation” brought suit against the gov’t on grounds that the NDP is unconstitutional. In that case, the Obama administration was actually the defendant and argued in FAVOR of retaining the National Day of Prayer.
The bottom line is that the post [private individual] duplicated clearly has a fear and misinformation component: Obama hates Christians and loves the Christian-hating religion of Islam.
This is patently untrue and worthy of our criticism.
These unsolicited Facebook debates are cumbersome to everyone else, so if you want to continue a conversation with me, I invite you to send me personal FB messages or type on my blog: (http://www.thepeakcommunity.blogspot.com/)
respectfully,
-Corbin Lambeth
All I wanted to say is that your first post was incorrect. we can split hair on just about everything. You see it as an attack, I see it as information. You say tomato, I say tomatoe type of thing. You read more into it then I did and commented incorrectly. Not a big deal.
ReplyDeleteWell, Jeff, the irony of it all is that you attempted to "correct" me by confirming what I said, namely, that our President didn't cancel the National Day of Prayer. On that we can agree.
ReplyDeleteLet's quit while we're ahead, no?
-CL
But Corbin that was not the correction, you disagreeing with [private individual’s] post was the correction. You used the correct statement to disagree with his post, which never said the day was canceled, only the White House ceremony was cancel by BHO, thus creating the disagreement.
ReplyDeleteWell, Jeff, the forward that [private individual] repeated seemingly intends the two events to be confused (the NDP and the White House meeting). I intended to combat the deception by calling attention to the fact that our President did not cancel the NDP at all. Then the mass email gets really muddled by implying that the President wants to slam the door on prayer on one hand while on the other warmly embracing it (with Muslims at the capitol building). The whole tone of the mass email intends to stir up anti-Obama sentiment and play on the fears of the easily persuaded while downplaying the actual facts that the facade is built upon. That you consider this propaganda "information" indicates that further conversation between us is likely to be unproductive, but I would like to suggest that the National Day of Prayer is not intended to favor or discriminate for or against any religion. I also suggest that if more Christians and Muslims actually took the time to join hands and pray together at a truly ecumenical National Day of Prayer, they might just be inclined to hate each other a little less. May there be peace between us. May it start with you and me.
ReplyDelete-CL
Corbin,
ReplyDeleteI hope there is peace between us. I can agree to disagree. You lean one way and I the other. but to try and say that my comment of “information” over propaganda, wow, I like your analogy that we are just big dummies and need people like you to help us understand all this information. To think that we will get stirred up over an email sure makes us look simple and small. I wish you would stick to facts and stop injecting opinion into this.
As for the propaganda, Let me correct you on this also. I have included the post and wanted to see which of these statements the propaganda was. Please read:
In 1952 President Truman established one day a year as a “National Day of Prayer." TRUE
In 1988 President Reagan designated the First Thursday in May of each year as the National Day of Prayer. TRUE
In June 2007(then) Presidential Candidate Barack Obama declared that the USA "Was no longer a Christian nation." TRUE
This year President Obama canceled the 21st annual National Day of Prayer ceremony at the White House under the ruse Of "not wanting to offend anyone" TRUE
BUT... on September 25, 2009 from 4 AM until 7 PM, a National Day of Prayer FOR THE MUSLIM RELIGION was Held on Capitol Hill, Beside the White House. There were over 50,000 Muslims in D.C. that day. TRUE
We need to stay on point here. You were the first to say that BHO didn’t cancel the Day of Prayer. That’s not what’s in the post. It never said that he did. That’s all I was pointing out to you. I do not want to get into a discussion of all the other topics you were including in your post to justify your comments. Not going there.
What I really find truly amazing is your attempt after each of your post to say: Let's quit while we're ahead, no?, as if then I respond, you have to come back. Let see if you respond to this? I have a feeling you cannot hold yourself to you own words, sorry, just my thought. (First time for me being off topic, I apologize)
When we are done I would like to post this on [private individual]’s first post to let everyone see how we are doing.
See, I truly enjoy an on topic discussion. Thank God we live in a country where we can still do this.
Jeff
Jeff,
ReplyDeleteAs I said previously, I am fairly confident that further dialog with you will be unproductive. You have repeatedly demonstrated that your faith in your political perspective is impervious to criticism and reflection, but against better judgment, I am willing to give it one more try.
However, I do not give you permission to post my private words to you in public or on anyone else’s Facebook page, not because I won’t stand by what I said, but because I do not wish our disagreement to add to the pile of useless rhetoric that only serves to separate rather than unify. There is far too much of that already, and I think we are kidding ourselves if we think our friends really want to hear us piss and moan about what constitutes propaganda and what is legitimate information when it comes to politics. I hope you will have the integrity to honor my request.
On with the show. Your attempts to “correct” me once again miss the mark. You repeatedly confirm what I said about our President not canceling the NDP. Thank you for recognizing this one more time. Now, what we need to do is get you to deal with what I said about the White House and the alleged “21 consecutive observances” of various Presidents and the NDP.
First of all, there have not been 21 consecutive annual Presidential/ White House observances of the NDP. As I have said, that is pure fiction. I thought I was rather clear that while George Jr. did this every year, Clinton, Bush 1 and Reagan did not. Nor did the Presidents before them do so on a regular basis as far as I know. However, according a statement by White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs, the President would be spending some time in private prayer that day - "as he does every day."
Secondly, the propaganda perpetuated about Obama’s quote and Christianity is a moot point. Have you considered that the USA was never a “Christian Nation”? It’s called the First Amendment in the Bill of Rights as part of the US Constitution. Even so, let’s consider the claim that you have swallowed and apparently sworn fealty to.
CLAIM: In June 2007, (then) Presidential candidate Barack Obama declared that the U.S.A. was no longer a Christian nation.
STATUS of the claim: FALSE.
This is based on a misquote. One sentence in the text of Barack Obama's prepared remarks for a keynote address at the Christian Sojourners "Call to Renewal" conference on June 28, 2006 (not 2007) read as follows (emphasis added):
“Whatever we once were, we are no longer JUST a Christian nation; we are also a Jewish nation, a Muslim nation, a Buddhist nation, a Hindu nation, and a nation of nonbelievers.”
It's clear from the context that Obama was speaking of the religious demographics of the country, not, contrary to what some people seem to believe, proclaiming an abandonment of Christian values.
Can you see this for what it is, Jeff? Will you continue to prosecute the wrong case? Can you not see that the email our mutual friend [private individual] sent out is little more than a political blandishment carefully orchestrated and worded to sling mud and deceive the credulous? Surely you are capable of perceiving propaganda when it is launched against what you support. Do you think you can be as skeptical and as perceptive when it is launched against who and what you oppose? That is all I ask.
-C. Lambeth
Corbin,
ReplyDeleteThank you. I knew you couldn’t leave it alone. It took a little more time than most, I have to admit, to get you to go there, but you did. You seem to be a little angry. I am sensing that in your returns, and it is getting more and more as we go on. I think now I understand you comments on this being unproductive. Up until your last one, I thought it was going OK, but now see you point, “if you disagree with me, it makes me mad”…. And you were right on target, lashing out at me and using all kinds of information, again, not on point, but I kinda figured you would go there. It is always a matter of time before the left try to go after the one that points out they wrong.
Not sure why you don’t want everyone to see what has been said. I believe you were the one who first put it out there. I would like to honor your request, but feel in the interest of all those involved, I can’t. You can’t hide me behind words like integrity and then ask that you hide behind private words. If you say it them you should be willing to say to everyone. I do not mind anyone reading what I have put out there, why would you?? People out there need to hear and see this type of discussion. It may help them look into what is going on in the country, and especially with 8 days to elections. They need to see that there are really people out there that support _____ this. You can fill in the blank. I want people to get involved, research themselves and decide for themselves. Not have the government (or you) tell them what they should do.
This is the greatest country in the world, which is why people get into leaky boats or climb barbed wired fences to get to it. I have yet to see anyone getting into a leaky boat or climbing barded wired fences to leave it. It is the opportunity they seek. Yet that opportunity is slowly disappearing..
See, I said, “ we can agree to disagree”. You can’t. and again, I believe you will respond to this one as well. You must force me to believe as you. There are TOOOOO many things wrong with what is going on with this country right now. You are edging to bring those topics out with your last post. I choose not to go there. I agree with you on that point, this is not the forum for that. See we can agree on something!!!!! Find solace in that.
I have truly enjoyed this banter back and forth. I will let you have the last word, before I post it on [private individual]’s site.
Jeff
Jeff,
ReplyDeleteYour accusation of anger is nothing more than a projection of your own disposition onto me. However, I admit that I remain amazed at your persistent and willful ignorance even in the presence of accurate information that challenges the propaganda you have come to believe.
I am disappointed that you lack the integrity to keep private conversations private, but I am not surprised. Now I wonder if you have the courage to post all of my messages unedited.
People who love to fight need an audience to perform in front of, and that’s not me. So it is clear that we are a mismatch for conversation partners. There are other forums and formats that thrive on the type of dialogue you seem to crave. Yahoo allows for comments on their server’s stories, and Amazon.com has all types of reader discussion boards on books and general interest threads. I think you will find plenty of people that think and believe just like you do in those areas, as well as people that you can attempt to “correct.” As for our conversation, it is past time for me to politely excuse myself.
Good luck to you, Jeff.
-CL
That ends the "private" discussion that Jeff and I had. He then posted the entire transcript on the Facebook thread.
ReplyDeleteI have to admit that I was tempted to respond in that format again, but there's little I could have said that would be as damaging as Jeff's own meandering and poorly executed thoughts. The subsequent quietude of others' responses to him in that thread is deafening. Perhaps I should take this as a nod towards discretion being the better part of valor when tempted to answer a fool according to his folly. How many times will I have to learn that lesson? I'll get back to you on that.
-CL
"When in doubt, shout – why shaking someone’s beliefs turns them into stronger advocates" -Discover Magazine, 10/19/2010
ReplyDeleteIn a new study, David Gal and Derek Rucker from Northwestern University have found that when people’s confidence in their beliefs is shaken, they become stronger advocates for those beliefs. The duo carried out three experiments involving issues such as animal testing, dietary preferences, and loyalty towards Macs over PCs. In each one, they subtly manipulated their subjects’ confidence and found the same thing: when faced with doubt, people shout even louder.
Gal and Rucker were inspired by a classic psychological book called When Prophecy Fails. In it, Leon Festinger and colleagues infiltrated an American cult whose leader, Dorothy Martin, convinced her followers that flying saucers would rescue them from an apocalyptic flood. Many believed her, giving up their livelihoods, possessions and loved ones in anticipation of their alien saviours. When the fated moment came and nothing happened, the group decided that their dedication had spared the Earth from destruction. In a reversal of their earlier distaste for publicity, they started to actively proselytise for their beliefs. Far from shattering their faith, the absent UFOs had turned them into zealous evangelists.
The case study inspired Festinger’s theory of “cognitive dissonance”, which describes the discomfort that people feel when they try to cope with conflicting ideas. Festinger reasoned that people will go to great lengths to reduce this conflict. Altering one’s beliefs in the face of new evidence is one solution but for Martin’s followers, this was too difficult. Their alternative was to try and muster social support for their ideas. If other people also believed, their internal conflicts would lessen.
Festinger predicted that when someone’s beliefs are challenged, they would try to raise support for those beliefs with paradoxical enthusiasm. Amazingly enough, during the intervening half-century, this prediction has never been tested in an experiment – that is, until now.
Corbin, Where do you FIND these people? Jeff's posts are so poorly constructed that I wonder if English is even his native language. And he didn't even try to answer your objections to his confused rhetoric. Sadly, he doesn't seem to be unique among the masses with his political filiblustering. Great title, by the way.
ReplyDeleteDanny may have a point. You’ve shaken Jeff’s tree, and he’s started shouting louder (almost incoherently). Sheez.
Simmer down, Jeff, and get a clue.